Tag Archives: Holy Spirit

Jesus Genealogy – Is It from Joseph’s or Mary’s Line?

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Jesus Genealogy – Is It from Joseph or Mary’s Line?

Orthodox Jews (not Messianic Jews) and other skeptics of the Word and Orthodox Christianity attempt to discredit Jesus’ deity and deny that he was man and God without having inherited a sin nature.  The context of this question arose from a friend of mine who used to be a zealot for Christ and has now converted to Judaism.  He is now a zealot for Judaism.  He went from a point of Grace provided by Jesus Christ to now living under the Law (Torah). He contends that Christ could not have come from a seed conceived by the Holy Spirit and that Joseph was physically his father. He denies the deity of Christ. Our tag team (with my friend’s consent) consisted of myself and my pastor who is mature in the Word.

Here’s the “conversation”:

Friend’s original comments:

According to the Jewish Bible, one of the requirements for the messiah is that he must be a descendant of King David from his son Solomon (2 Sam 7:12-13). Both Jews and Christian recognize that the Messiah must be of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David. Even Matt 1:1 says “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”  All of the major Messianic prophecies indicate this (Gen 49:10; 2 Sam 7:12-13; Ezekiel 34:23, 37:21-28; Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; and Hosea 3:4-5). In Jeremiah chapter 33, verse 17, G-d says that the royal House of David will never lack a man to sit on the throne of Israel.Throughout the Jewish scriptures we find that tribal and royal lineage must follow the line of the father. (In chapters 1 through 4 of the book of Numbers where tribal lineage is described, the phrase “to the house of their fathers” appears over 20 times.)

In the book of Numbers, chapter 1, verse 18, we’re told that the Jewish people declare their pedigrees according to their fathers’ houses. When Queen Athaliah wanted to eliminate the Royal Line of David, she only killed the males knowing full well that a female descendant of David couldn’t pass on the right to the throne (II Kings 11; II Chronicles 22).

The claim that the Messiah must be born from a virgin – a central tenet of Christian dogma – is not consistent with the Bible’s description of the Messiah. The New Testament, recognizing this vital requirement of the patrilineal line, spends almost two chapters to establish the genealogical record of Jesus patrilineal line as going back to King David. However, they (the Church) maintain that he was born of a virgin and that Joseph was not him natural father!!  If the Church’s claim of the virgin birth is correct, then Jesus has no established genealogical record going back to King David. I submit the Church’s claim of the “proof text” from Is 7:14 is no proof at all.  Strong’s number 1330 or 1331 is not the word in Is 7:14 (See attached)  WHO IS MESSING WITH MY BIBLE??!!

Either He was born of a virgin, or he was the son of His Father David, it cannot be both!!  What is your answer to this dilemma?

My Comments:

Sidenote:  “Although my “Jewish” friend quotes from the New Testament, he doesn’t believe the New Testament is the Word of God, but concocted by Jewish Christians to back up a fictional story about Jesus’ deity, his Messiah status and the virgin birth of Jesus pointing to his lack of an inherited sin nature through a man’s seed. 

What do you mean “according to the Jewish Bible”?  If you’re referring to just the Torah (most Christians and myself refer to it as the Pentateuch), then we really can’t carry this discussion too much further since I hold the Bible in its entirety (2 Timothy 3:16-17) to be the Word of God.   Since you’ve allowed me to refer to the Christian Bible in its entirety, I assume then you are allowing me this liberty to state my defense using the whole Bible.

Also, where does it say that the Messiah has to come physically through the seed of Man and not through Mary’s seed?  And more specifically, that the Messiah (whom I hold to be Jesus) had to physically come through Joseph’s line (Matthew’s account) and not through Mary’s line, whom I believe is a descendent of David according to Luke’s account. “

Also, Romans 1:3-4 states, “concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord.”

And also, from the Jew’s point of view at that time (based on what scripture tells us), Joseph did come from David’s line and was also known to be Jesus earthly father, hence Jesus would have been seen as coming from the line of King David, particularly through Mary’s line.  Even your Jewish traditions establish that a bloodline is established through the mother (Matrilineality).   Although a true believer knows and holds to Jesus being the Son of God (John 3:16) and not conceived through the sinful seed of man but through a virgin birth conceived by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).

Also, in our last phone conversation, you stated that King David didn’t sin with Bathsheba and that he didn’t have Uriah the Hittite killed as Nathan the prophet pointed out to David (2 Samuel 12).  Yet even David acknowledged that he had sinned when he wrote a Psalm of repentance in Psalms 51.  You really can’t back your assertion up with scripture, maybe perhaps with your historical understanding, but definitely not through a scriptural basis.

Is there a Jewish rule that states that Joseph’s status as an adoptive or “legal” parent of Jesus negates Jesus genealogy or his lineage as perceived by the Jews and Christians.  The Lord also speaks about a spiritual grafting that takes place (please read Romans 11 and John 15).  Aren’t you now grafted into Judaism (per your stated beliefs) although you have no proof that you have a Jewish genealogy?  They accepted you in, didn’t they, even though you may not have a physical Jewish genealogy?  You did this through your acknowledgement of Judaism beliefs and perhaps some formal acknowledgement or ceremony.

Yes, Joseph is the “adoptive” and “legal” father since his seed did not physically impregnate Mary’s egg which scripture states clearly that conceived by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18), thereby keeping Jesus from receiving an inherited sin nature.  Yet Jesus fully developed as a human embryo through Mary’s egg to become a man (read Philippians 2).   Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and His command. Because of Adam and Eve’s disobedience, sin has been an “inheritance” for all of their descendants. Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and so death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin through Adam’s seed is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherited our sinful nature from Adam.  So how can Messiah be born of man’s seed if he must be sinless?  Is He man or God?

My Pastor’s comments since my friend allowed this.

“You friend said “either he was born of a virgin, or he was the son of His Father David…it cannot be both.”  That is, simply, incorrect.  It is correct if both Matthew and Luke are giving Joseph’s lineage back to David (and beyond).  It is incorrect if Matthew is giving Joseph’s lineage (Giving Jesus a legal line to David) and Luke’s gives Mary’s lineage (giving Jesus a physical line to David).

The obvious difference in these two genealogies happens from the sons of David forward.  Matthews trails through David’s son Solomon to Joseph.  Luke’s trails through David’s son Nathan to Heli (Mary’s dad).  That’s why in Matthew, Jacob is Joseph’s father… and in Luke, Heli is Joseph’s father (in-law). “He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph…” (Luke 3:23).

Your friend might be reminded in Numbers 27:1-11 — God allowed Moses the decree of passing inheritance from Father’s to daughters in the case that he had no son.  Historians have regularly agreed on the fact that Heli (Mary’s dad) had no sons…thus Mary’s husband, Joseph, stands in for her while Luke rolls out the genealogy.

So…If we (through careful research and reasoning) regard the two genealogies as unique to Joseph (Matthew) and Mary (Luke), then Jesus was both born of a virgin AND the son of His father David (physically through Mary and legally through Joseph).”

Additional Comments of Mine:

Also, the Old Testament has several references regarding Jesus birth, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, Micah 5:2 and many others concerning his ministry and death, Zechariah 9:9, Psalm 22:16-18 and probably the clearest prophecy about Christ is the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah, particularly Isaiah 53:3-7.

Concluding Comments:

Although we don’t mind honest discussion and questions about Scripture, the discussion with my friend will not continue at this point since we’re at an impasse regarding Jesus’ as Messiah and His Deity.

My pastor stated this to my friend, “My thought is simply, you and I are both well-versed on the arguments surrounding Jesus as Messiah.  The Orthodox Jewish community denies it and back up their positions with scripture, their scholars and literature.  The Christian community embraces it, and back it up with scripture, their scholars and literature.  So, it’s really not a matter of proving anything.  It’s got to do with making a choice based on the evidence presented.  I believe that Jesus is the Messiah.  You once did and now you do not. Simple as that.  We’re quite obviously not the first two people in history to fall on opposite sides of that coin.”

A stern reminder to my friend is found in Matthew 10:32-33, “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.”  Jesus in John 14:6 states “Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

 

Can One Be Saved And Not Be Filled With The Holy Spirit?

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[Editors Note: The question came up on this blog listed in the title above, “Can One Be Saved And Not Be Filled With The Holy Spirit?” from Alice. While it is true that all Christians at the point of conversion (the new birth) are baptized or indwelt by the Holy Spirit, a Christian must be filled or controlled by the Holy Spirit in a moment by moment decision throughout the rest of his (her) life.  In the Book of Acts, it is apparent that the Apostles and disciples were being filled with the Holy Spirit  at various times (see Acts 2:4; 4:8; 4:31 where Peter and others filled more than once).The same can be said for Paul (Acts 9:17, 13:9); and it is Paul who commands us to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18). Dr. John MacArthur wrote an excellent article, “Is It Real?”.  For about $1.50 you can order the pamphlet, http://www.gty.org/products/Booklets/45REAL/Is-It-Real.  Please read the following longer explanation below and supporting scripture for good balance in answering this delicate and sensitive question from Alice, with an excellent article from one of our Bible researchers, “Fruit of the Spirit“.  After all, aren’t we commanded in Ephesians 5:18,  “And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit.” ? The Greek word in Strong’s, πλήρης (G4134) uses several close definitions which infer “to fill up, to fill to the full.”]

Fruit of the Spirit

Galatians 5:22

          The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Conversely the works of the flesh are. Sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. Some of these worldly desires and unsocial activities were part of my life before I came to know the Lord. I acted similar to the world I saw around me. By the worlds standard some forms of behavior were so common I felt out of place, like I was missing out and needed to catch up. From the worlds standpoint it was just expected of you, if you were a “real man”, to think and feel and act toward girls the way they were depicted in this world. And of course I wanted to fit in as most of us do. If truthful with ourselves, we know that all have lived in and of the world. If not physically then in our thought lives. Scripture says it plainly “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Lets face it, satan [editor comment: author doesn’t wish to capitalize the name of satan to elevate his prominence] doesn’t make temptations ugly and undesirable. And sin is fun for a season, but there are consequences that we will dearly pay, sometimes for the rest of our lives. These consequences don’t go away once we are saved by the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I can do nothing to eliminate the guilt of sin in my life, but by the grace of God, the atonement of Jesus death for my sins, and the power of the Holy Spirit to change my life, I can live a joyful life knowing I have been pardoned.

By prayer and supplication with thanksgiving and letting our request be known to God, the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, will guard our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

I need the Holy Spirit in every aspect of my life. Without His power and control of my life the fruit of the Spirit would not be apparent or would be twisted with pride and with selfish motives. Again let me say I am a sinful person and the only goodness that comes out of me is because of the Holy Spirit’s indwelling power.

Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Colossians 3:12-17

 

Paul urges us to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:1-3

 

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:18

 

You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Deuteronomy 6:5

 

Alice I had to give a little foundation, now in answer to your question from my heart, which I will also find some scripture to back up, let me say that without the Holy Spirit I would still be dead in my past sins. I can do nothing on my own, although we continually want to believe we are in control. If I wasn’t led by the Holy Spirit I would still be that selfish person I was in the past.

Alice the evidence of really being a Christian ( follower of Jesus ) is the fruit that is produced in our lives. Galatians 5:22, We are a stick on the ground, a branch fallen off a tree, a single vine.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

John 15:4-5

 

Alice as we allow the Holy Spirit to work in us and through us our character will be changed, there will be more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. At the same time we must realize it is not of our doing.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8-10

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Galatians 2:20

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Romans 8:9-11

 

Alice sorry this is so long but but God’s word is so very important.

In conclusion:  A person is baptized with the Holy Spirit one time when they truly become a Christian. As disciples of Jesus Christ we must continually be open to the authority and direction of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will guide us in the proper use of the armor of God, transform us so there is boldness in our witness, and influence us in all areas of our spiritual life.

Peter and John were told not to preach the gospel after being released from custody. They reported what had happened to their fellow Christians and they all went to prayer, asking for power and boldness to witness.

When they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.

There are many other scriptures about being filled with the Holy Spirit. Read about Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, in Acts 5, 6, 7

We read about being filled with the Holy Spirit in scripture. Bear in mind now that the Holy Spirit is God, the third person of the Trinity, He comes into our innermost being and indwells us 100%. I don’t believe He comes and goes as in the old testament. We are completely filled with the Holy Spirit. He doesn’t evaporate or dissipate nor is He consumed or depleted. But because of our free will we can chose to ignore Him or listen to Him as the authoritative God that He is. The Holy Spirit loves us and wants to help us grow into the person we should be and prepare us for eternity. The definition of influence–the capacity to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of someone. With this understanding I am now aware that most of the time I am ignoring Him. I really need to pray that my fallen, corrupt, sinful self will get out of the way and allow the Holy Spirit to influence my thoughts and actions. I need to be obedient to that influence. The way that will happen is through prayer and staying in “The Word of God”.

by Anonymous Author, personally tailoring the answer to our friend Alice.